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	Comments on: Are The Torments Of Hell And The Heavenly Bliss Eternal?	</title>
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		By: Kt		</title>
		<link>https://catalog.obitel-minsk.com/blog/2023/04/are-the-torments-of-hell-and-the-heavenly-bliss-eternal#comment-7386</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Kt]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 25 Jul 2023 11:49:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://catalog.obitel-minsk.com/blog/?p=40011#comment-7386</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[We need the option to print these great articles so that we can share them on paper... Can you add a print button so it just prints the article, and not the whole web page? 🙏]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>We need the option to print these great articles so that we can share them on paper&#8230; Can you add a print button so it just prints the article, and not the whole web page? 🙏</p>
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		<title>
		By: Reader John Malov		</title>
		<link>https://catalog.obitel-minsk.com/blog/2023/04/are-the-torments-of-hell-and-the-heavenly-bliss-eternal#comment-7335</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Reader John Malov]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 26 Apr 2023 09:40:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://catalog.obitel-minsk.com/blog/?p=40011#comment-7335</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[In reply to &lt;a href=&quot;https://catalog.obitel-minsk.com/blog/2023/04/are-the-torments-of-hell-and-the-heavenly-bliss-eternal#comment-7327&quot;&gt;Edward Hara&lt;/a&gt;.

Christ is risen!

&lt;blockquote&gt;If our Lord so clearly said this as the author infers, then how did the first 500 years of Christians, with a number of highly revered saints, get this so wrong, especially since they were Greek-speaking saints and would have read the Scriptures in their native tongue? How could men like St. Gregory of Nyssa (called “The Father of the Fathers”) and St. Isaac of Syria have read the Scriptures and come up with the idea that eventually all men will be saved if the Scriptures clearly teach an unending and eternal punishment.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

If some Greek fathers believed this, it does not mean that the rest of the Greek fathers believed it. There is no difficulty in finding evidence for this, so I will not dwell on it. Similar to that, some fathers before the Council of Nicaea held an opinion that is now known as pre-nicene subordinationism. Later it was condemned. Case closed. Both cases closed.

Another thing I want to say is that St. Mark of Ephesus, speaking against the Latins, said this about St. Gregory&#039;s words on apocatastasis: &quot;it would be better to leave them silent and not at all force us, for the sake of our defense, to bring them explicitly to the middle. He went on, referring to St. John Climacus and the Fifth Ecumenical Council, to affirm the condemnation of apocatastasis by the Orthodox Church. Would you also call St. Mark of Ephesus a roman catholic heretic? 



&lt;blockquote&gt;Why are you not aware at all that the Greek word “aionios” does not mean eternal, but means “age-lasting?” If you are going to make a statement, you better have some serious proof upon which to base your allegations, and you better have an answer to Greek scholars, such as Dr. Illaria Ramelli, who clearly teach that the Greek word “aionios,” found in Matthew 25:46, for instance, in no way means “eternal.” There is a clear and different word in Greek for eternal – adidios.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

The same word &#039;aionios&#039; is used when describing the eternal life. Does it mean that eternal life is &quot;in no way means eternal&quot;?

I don&#039;t really have time to further explain that which is obvious in the Church doctrine. The 5th Ecumenical Council condemns it (which you don&#039;t recognize for some reason), most fathers do not recognize it, the anathemas to apocatastasis are held in various local councils (eg. council of Constantinople 1583: &#039;Those who believe in purgatory, that is that postmortem penance and purification is achieved by physical fire and those who hold like Origen that the flames of hell are not everlasting&#039;), the anathemas to those who do not believe in the eternity of hell are proclaimed during the Sunday of the Triumph of Orthodoxy. Sapienti sat]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In reply to <a href="https://catalog.obitel-minsk.com/blog/2023/04/are-the-torments-of-hell-and-the-heavenly-bliss-eternal#comment-7327">Edward Hara</a>.</p>
<p>Christ is risen!</p>
<blockquote><p>If our Lord so clearly said this as the author infers, then how did the first 500 years of Christians, with a number of highly revered saints, get this so wrong, especially since they were Greek-speaking saints and would have read the Scriptures in their native tongue? How could men like St. Gregory of Nyssa (called “The Father of the Fathers”) and St. Isaac of Syria have read the Scriptures and come up with the idea that eventually all men will be saved if the Scriptures clearly teach an unending and eternal punishment.</p></blockquote>
<p>If some Greek fathers believed this, it does not mean that the rest of the Greek fathers believed it. There is no difficulty in finding evidence for this, so I will not dwell on it. Similar to that, some fathers before the Council of Nicaea held an opinion that is now known as pre-nicene subordinationism. Later it was condemned. Case closed. Both cases closed.</p>
<p>Another thing I want to say is that St. Mark of Ephesus, speaking against the Latins, said this about St. Gregory&#8217;s words on apocatastasis: &#8220;it would be better to leave them silent and not at all force us, for the sake of our defense, to bring them explicitly to the middle. He went on, referring to St. John Climacus and the Fifth Ecumenical Council, to affirm the condemnation of apocatastasis by the Orthodox Church. Would you also call St. Mark of Ephesus a roman catholic heretic? </p>
<blockquote><p>Why are you not aware at all that the Greek word “aionios” does not mean eternal, but means “age-lasting?” If you are going to make a statement, you better have some serious proof upon which to base your allegations, and you better have an answer to Greek scholars, such as Dr. Illaria Ramelli, who clearly teach that the Greek word “aionios,” found in Matthew 25:46, for instance, in no way means “eternal.” There is a clear and different word in Greek for eternal – adidios.</p></blockquote>
<p>The same word &#8216;aionios&#8217; is used when describing the eternal life. Does it mean that eternal life is &#8220;in no way means eternal&#8221;?</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t really have time to further explain that which is obvious in the Church doctrine. The 5th Ecumenical Council condemns it (which you don&#8217;t recognize for some reason), most fathers do not recognize it, the anathemas to apocatastasis are held in various local councils (eg. council of Constantinople 1583: &#8216;Those who believe in purgatory, that is that postmortem penance and purification is achieved by physical fire and those who hold like Origen that the flames of hell are not everlasting&#8217;), the anathemas to those who do not believe in the eternity of hell are proclaimed during the Sunday of the Triumph of Orthodoxy. Sapienti sat</p>
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		<title>
		By: Edward Anthony Hara		</title>
		<link>https://catalog.obitel-minsk.com/blog/2023/04/are-the-torments-of-hell-and-the-heavenly-bliss-eternal#comment-7329</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Edward Anthony Hara]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 17 Apr 2023 16:32:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://catalog.obitel-minsk.com/blog/?p=40011#comment-7329</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[More and more Orthodox are starting to believe in the ancient belief of Apocatastasis, which was taught by the Church for 500 years before the Roman church started to attack it. Men like St. Gregory of Nyssa and St. Isaac of Syria openly taught it.

You refused to publish my objections to this piece.  Shame on you!]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>More and more Orthodox are starting to believe in the ancient belief of Apocatastasis, which was taught by the Church for 500 years before the Roman church started to attack it. Men like St. Gregory of Nyssa and St. Isaac of Syria openly taught it.</p>
<p>You refused to publish my objections to this piece.  Shame on you!</p>
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		<title>
		By: Edward Hara		</title>
		<link>https://catalog.obitel-minsk.com/blog/2023/04/are-the-torments-of-hell-and-the-heavenly-bliss-eternal#comment-7327</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Edward Hara]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 14 Apr 2023 20:15:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://catalog.obitel-minsk.com/blog/?p=40011#comment-7327</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[I doubt this will pass your censors, but I count not disagree more with the &quot;theologian.&quot;

Yes, the Lord repeatedly declares this unambiguously: “Then he will say to those at his left hand, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels…” (Matt. 25:41, see also Matt. 25:46, Mark 9:43, Rev. 14:11).

NO. HE. DID. NOT!

If our Lord so clearly said this as the author infers, then how did the first 500 years of Christians, with a number of highly revered saints, get this so wrong, especially since they were Greek-speaking saints and would have read the Scriptures in their native tongue? How could men like St. Gregory of Nyssa (called &quot;The Father of the Fathers&quot;) and St. Isaac of Syria have read the Scriptures and come up with the idea that eventually all men will be saved if the Scriptures clearly teach an unending and eternal punishment. Why don&#039;t you know that it was the Latin Church, beginning with St. Augustine, who formulated several horrid doctrines which are anathema in the Orthodox Church, who began to attack Apokatastasis. Why are you not aware at all that the Greek word &quot;aionios&quot; does not mean eternal, but means &quot;age-lasting?&quot;  If you are going to make a statement, you better have some serious proof upon which to base your allegations, and you better have an answer to Greek scholars, such as Dr. Illaria Ramelli, who clearly teach that the Greek word &quot;aionios,&quot; found in Matthew 25:46, for instance, in no way means &quot;eternal.&quot; There is a clear and different word in Greek for eternal - adidios. 

Hieromonk Job (Gumerov) “Perplexity about the eternity of hell reveals a narrow formal understanding of the issue. Hell is eternal, not because Divine Justice so desires, but because a soul bound to sin remains so forever.” 

And HOW do you know this? Have you been on the other side of death and entered into the secret councils of the Lord? The Orthodox Church claims that the three-legged stool of truth is Scripture, the ecumenical councils, and the Fathers.  Well, this statement violates all three.  The Scriptures do not teach an eternity of hell. They are violently mistranslated in some places, such as Matthew 25:46. The councils of the Church nowhere teach such a thing (Constantinople II did not teach this in the original canons). And authors such as this one conveniently ignore men like St. Gregory of Nyssa and St. Issac of Syria, along with the Cappadocian Fathers, St. Macarina, and a host of others, in favor of mistranslated quotes from Fathers which support the idea of an eternal hell. Furthermore, unlike the heretical statements of the Roman Catholic Church, there is neither a set catechism of Orthodoxy, nor is there any teaching from the ecumenical councils on this issue, yet the Orthodox treat it as if it is a set dogma.

Venerable Barsanuphius of Optina: “At the present time, the laity, as well as young clergy is coming to believe that eternal torment is incompatible with God’s infinite mercy and that, therefore, torment of hell is not eternal. […] An incurable bodily disease ends in death, but how can a mental disease end when there is no death for the soul?”

Utterly false analogy. If you are going to use the analogy of disease, then you are saying that God is incapble of healing a soul. It also defies the position of Orthodoxy regarding the salvific work of Christ on the Cross. Orthodoxy does not believe in or teach a &quot;legal punishment&quot; from the Cross. What we are told is that salvation is medicinal, that is, that the work of the Cross is for the healing of the soul, not for its damnation. Furthermore, in two days, all Orthodox will be singing, with considerable gusto: &quot;Christ is risen from the dead, by DEATH HE CONQUERED DEATH.&quot;  Did the author even THINK about this when copied this quote?  If an eternal hell, which is the state of death (separation from God) is true, then Christ DID NOT conquer death and this hymn is a damnable LIE!

Finally, look at that picture! Is that justice in any sense of the word? No, that is sick and twisted Medieval Roman Catholicism at its worst. How dare you try to say in the same breath that God is love and yet post such a picture, as if love would EVER do such a thing to the object of its love. This picture is completely out of sync with both love and justice.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I doubt this will pass your censors, but I count not disagree more with the &#8220;theologian.&#8221;</p>
<p>Yes, the Lord repeatedly declares this unambiguously: “Then he will say to those at his left hand, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels…” (Matt. 25:41, see also Matt. 25:46, Mark 9:43, Rev. 14:11).</p>
<p>NO. HE. DID. NOT!</p>
<p>If our Lord so clearly said this as the author infers, then how did the first 500 years of Christians, with a number of highly revered saints, get this so wrong, especially since they were Greek-speaking saints and would have read the Scriptures in their native tongue? How could men like St. Gregory of Nyssa (called &#8220;The Father of the Fathers&#8221;) and St. Isaac of Syria have read the Scriptures and come up with the idea that eventually all men will be saved if the Scriptures clearly teach an unending and eternal punishment. Why don&#8217;t you know that it was the Latin Church, beginning with St. Augustine, who formulated several horrid doctrines which are anathema in the Orthodox Church, who began to attack Apokatastasis. Why are you not aware at all that the Greek word &#8220;aionios&#8221; does not mean eternal, but means &#8220;age-lasting?&#8221;  If you are going to make a statement, you better have some serious proof upon which to base your allegations, and you better have an answer to Greek scholars, such as Dr. Illaria Ramelli, who clearly teach that the Greek word &#8220;aionios,&#8221; found in Matthew 25:46, for instance, in no way means &#8220;eternal.&#8221; There is a clear and different word in Greek for eternal &#8211; adidios. </p>
<p>Hieromonk Job (Gumerov) “Perplexity about the eternity of hell reveals a narrow formal understanding of the issue. Hell is eternal, not because Divine Justice so desires, but because a soul bound to sin remains so forever.” </p>
<p>And HOW do you know this? Have you been on the other side of death and entered into the secret councils of the Lord? The Orthodox Church claims that the three-legged stool of truth is Scripture, the ecumenical councils, and the Fathers.  Well, this statement violates all three.  The Scriptures do not teach an eternity of hell. They are violently mistranslated in some places, such as Matthew 25:46. The councils of the Church nowhere teach such a thing (Constantinople II did not teach this in the original canons). And authors such as this one conveniently ignore men like St. Gregory of Nyssa and St. Issac of Syria, along with the Cappadocian Fathers, St. Macarina, and a host of others, in favor of mistranslated quotes from Fathers which support the idea of an eternal hell. Furthermore, unlike the heretical statements of the Roman Catholic Church, there is neither a set catechism of Orthodoxy, nor is there any teaching from the ecumenical councils on this issue, yet the Orthodox treat it as if it is a set dogma.</p>
<p>Venerable Barsanuphius of Optina: “At the present time, the laity, as well as young clergy is coming to believe that eternal torment is incompatible with God’s infinite mercy and that, therefore, torment of hell is not eternal. […] An incurable bodily disease ends in death, but how can a mental disease end when there is no death for the soul?”</p>
<p>Utterly false analogy. If you are going to use the analogy of disease, then you are saying that God is incapble of healing a soul. It also defies the position of Orthodoxy regarding the salvific work of Christ on the Cross. Orthodoxy does not believe in or teach a &#8220;legal punishment&#8221; from the Cross. What we are told is that salvation is medicinal, that is, that the work of the Cross is for the healing of the soul, not for its damnation. Furthermore, in two days, all Orthodox will be singing, with considerable gusto: &#8220;Christ is risen from the dead, by DEATH HE CONQUERED DEATH.&#8221;  Did the author even THINK about this when copied this quote?  If an eternal hell, which is the state of death (separation from God) is true, then Christ DID NOT conquer death and this hymn is a damnable LIE!</p>
<p>Finally, look at that picture! Is that justice in any sense of the word? No, that is sick and twisted Medieval Roman Catholicism at its worst. How dare you try to say in the same breath that God is love and yet post such a picture, as if love would EVER do such a thing to the object of its love. This picture is completely out of sync with both love and justice.</p>
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