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	Comments on: Ivan the Terrible: How Could Faith and Violence Coexist in One Person?	</title>
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	<link>https://catalog.obitel-minsk.com/blog/2022/08/ivan-the-terrible-how-could-faith-and-violence-coexist-in-one-person</link>
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		<title>
		By: Zac Crabtree		</title>
		<link>https://catalog.obitel-minsk.com/blog/2022/08/ivan-the-terrible-how-could-faith-and-violence-coexist-in-one-person#comment-6249</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Zac Crabtree]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 13 Sep 2022 22:18:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://catalog.obitel-minsk.com/blog/?p=38987#comment-6249</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Well, I think the problem, historically, is that with rulers, there are a lot of tales and chronicles, but everyone sort of has a dog in the fight. Look at Procopius&#039; secret history of Emperor Saint Justinian, for example. We do not believe the things recounted there, even though it was written very closely to the time of its subject. With Tsar Ivan IV, much of the bad stuff comes from a traitor-- Kurbsky. 

The Synodicon of the Disgraced is not an acknowledgment of his guilt, but a recognition that those whom he had executed or otherwise caused to die (I think the actual cause of Met. Philip&#039;s death is disputed) needed God&#039;s mercy. 

The fact that this man composed Church canons, convened Church councils, submitted to Church penances (as when the bishops excommunicated him for his wives beyond the third), built Churches, made war to subjugate lands to the Gospel, and did so many other things merits a serious historical review about what misdeeds we can actually verify that he did. 

His ideas about the rights of the king certainly sound medieval and unenlightened to modern ears, but it was commonly believed that the Christian Ruler was the anointed of God to bear the sword, and had the power of life and death over all his subjects, as God&#039;s viceroy. Such was the piety toward Christian emperors that, although many Byzantine Emperors were heretics, none of them were ever anathematized by the Church (except, I think, perhaps, for Julian the Apostate).]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well, I think the problem, historically, is that with rulers, there are a lot of tales and chronicles, but everyone sort of has a dog in the fight. Look at Procopius&#8217; secret history of Emperor Saint Justinian, for example. We do not believe the things recounted there, even though it was written very closely to the time of its subject. With Tsar Ivan IV, much of the bad stuff comes from a traitor&#8211; Kurbsky. </p>
<p>The Synodicon of the Disgraced is not an acknowledgment of his guilt, but a recognition that those whom he had executed or otherwise caused to die (I think the actual cause of Met. Philip&#8217;s death is disputed) needed God&#8217;s mercy. </p>
<p>The fact that this man composed Church canons, convened Church councils, submitted to Church penances (as when the bishops excommunicated him for his wives beyond the third), built Churches, made war to subjugate lands to the Gospel, and did so many other things merits a serious historical review about what misdeeds we can actually verify that he did. </p>
<p>His ideas about the rights of the king certainly sound medieval and unenlightened to modern ears, but it was commonly believed that the Christian Ruler was the anointed of God to bear the sword, and had the power of life and death over all his subjects, as God&#8217;s viceroy. Such was the piety toward Christian emperors that, although many Byzantine Emperors were heretics, none of them were ever anathematized by the Church (except, I think, perhaps, for Julian the Apostate).</p>
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		<title>
		By: Reader John Malov		</title>
		<link>https://catalog.obitel-minsk.com/blog/2022/08/ivan-the-terrible-how-could-faith-and-violence-coexist-in-one-person#comment-6131</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Reader John Malov]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 04 Aug 2022 06:40:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://catalog.obitel-minsk.com/blog/?p=38987#comment-6131</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[In reply to &lt;a href=&quot;https://catalog.obitel-minsk.com/blog/2022/08/ivan-the-terrible-how-could-faith-and-violence-coexist-in-one-person#comment-6126&quot;&gt;Edward Hara&lt;/a&gt;.

Very true! Lord have mercy!]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In reply to <a href="https://catalog.obitel-minsk.com/blog/2022/08/ivan-the-terrible-how-could-faith-and-violence-coexist-in-one-person#comment-6126">Edward Hara</a>.</p>
<p>Very true! Lord have mercy!</p>
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		<title>
		By: Reader John Malov		</title>
		<link>https://catalog.obitel-minsk.com/blog/2022/08/ivan-the-terrible-how-could-faith-and-violence-coexist-in-one-person#comment-6130</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Reader John Malov]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 04 Aug 2022 06:39:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://catalog.obitel-minsk.com/blog/?p=38987#comment-6130</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[In reply to &lt;a href=&quot;https://catalog.obitel-minsk.com/blog/2022/08/ivan-the-terrible-how-could-faith-and-violence-coexist-in-one-person#comment-6128&quot;&gt;John Outen&lt;/a&gt;.

Quote: &#039;It was odd that there was no patriarch or Bishop that challenged his immoral actions&quot;.
Thankfully, you are wrong.

Metropolitan Philip of Moscow (there were no patriarchs in Rus at that time) opposed Ivan the Terrible. For this he was killed. 
https://orthodoxwiki.org/Philip_II_of_Moscow

And he was not the only one. As far as I know, only one man, st. Nicholas, was not executed after denouncing the tsar: https://orthodoxwiki.org/Nicholas_(Salos)_of_Pskov]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In reply to <a href="https://catalog.obitel-minsk.com/blog/2022/08/ivan-the-terrible-how-could-faith-and-violence-coexist-in-one-person#comment-6128">John Outen</a>.</p>
<p>Quote: &#8216;It was odd that there was no patriarch or Bishop that challenged his immoral actions&#8221;.<br />
Thankfully, you are wrong.</p>
<p>Metropolitan Philip of Moscow (there were no patriarchs in Rus at that time) opposed Ivan the Terrible. For this he was killed.<br />
<a href="https://orthodoxwiki.org/Philip_II_of_Moscow" rel="nofollow ugc">https://orthodoxwiki.org/Philip_II_of_Moscow</a></p>
<p>And he was not the only one. As far as I know, only one man, st. Nicholas, was not executed after denouncing the tsar: <a href="https://orthodoxwiki.org/Nicholas_(Salos)_of_Pskov" rel="nofollow ugc">https://orthodoxwiki.org/Nicholas_(Salos)_of_Pskov</a></p>
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		<title>
		By: VICTORIA HEIM		</title>
		<link>https://catalog.obitel-minsk.com/blog/2022/08/ivan-the-terrible-how-could-faith-and-violence-coexist-in-one-person#comment-6129</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[VICTORIA HEIM]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 03 Aug 2022 17:57:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://catalog.obitel-minsk.com/blog/?p=38987#comment-6129</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Sadly, abuse is abuse.  I had a sister that took pleasure in creating pain.  She destroyed our family.
Her behavior prepared me for the evil that exists in the world.  I am blessed with being a poet and  Chaplain.  There will always be evil and those who take that path.  I am thankful I have responded with love and compassion.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sadly, abuse is abuse.  I had a sister that took pleasure in creating pain.  She destroyed our family.<br />
Her behavior prepared me for the evil that exists in the world.  I am blessed with being a poet and  Chaplain.  There will always be evil and those who take that path.  I am thankful I have responded with love and compassion.</p>
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		<title>
		By: John Outen		</title>
		<link>https://catalog.obitel-minsk.com/blog/2022/08/ivan-the-terrible-how-could-faith-and-violence-coexist-in-one-person#comment-6128</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[John Outen]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 03 Aug 2022 14:42:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://catalog.obitel-minsk.com/blog/?p=38987#comment-6128</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Orthodoxy is one that sacramentalizes the entire man in the Creation. The recreation of new Adam by Christ in the human transforms; and is a cosmological mystery. The compartmentalization of man is something so common in the West. It is something that isolates us from cooperation with our salvation. There was the cruel Ivan leader and the pious Ivan pleading to God for the atrocities diametrically and is a paradox of faith. It seems there was a war going on in his soul. I do think that there was something off that affected the personality of Ivan, but trauma can be used by the enemy of our souls to damage the creation of God. I do think his position and authority had something to do this idea of self aggrandizement. King Saul appeared to be cut from the same cloth in Holy Scripture. It was odd that there was no patriarch or Bishop that challenged his immoral actions. It seems the coldness of the ecclesiastical authorities lacked the courage to confront because they feared he would execute them or they cooperated because he expanded the monasteries and sent commemorations.  Ivan appeared to have deep remorse for his actions but showed no repentance. We should learn from him.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Orthodoxy is one that sacramentalizes the entire man in the Creation. The recreation of new Adam by Christ in the human transforms; and is a cosmological mystery. The compartmentalization of man is something so common in the West. It is something that isolates us from cooperation with our salvation. There was the cruel Ivan leader and the pious Ivan pleading to God for the atrocities diametrically and is a paradox of faith. It seems there was a war going on in his soul. I do think that there was something off that affected the personality of Ivan, but trauma can be used by the enemy of our souls to damage the creation of God. I do think his position and authority had something to do this idea of self aggrandizement. King Saul appeared to be cut from the same cloth in Holy Scripture. It was odd that there was no patriarch or Bishop that challenged his immoral actions. It seems the coldness of the ecclesiastical authorities lacked the courage to confront because they feared he would execute them or they cooperated because he expanded the monasteries and sent commemorations.  Ivan appeared to have deep remorse for his actions but showed no repentance. We should learn from him.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Edward Hara		</title>
		<link>https://catalog.obitel-minsk.com/blog/2022/08/ivan-the-terrible-how-could-faith-and-violence-coexist-in-one-person#comment-6126</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Edward Hara]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 03 Aug 2022 14:28:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://catalog.obitel-minsk.com/blog/?p=38987#comment-6126</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[This does not strike me as a particularly pious life. Rather, it strikes me as someone whose apparently pious actions are created more from a fear of hell and the Judgment rather than a true repentance. How many times have I heard from priests that true repentance produces a true change of life?  Many! 

I, a sinner, cannot and should not judge his life. Only the merciful God may do so, yet I am perplexed at how one might receive the life-giving Sacrament of the Eucharist and not be changed. How does this happen?

The best thing I can do for Ivan Grozny is to add his name to the list of deceased for whom I pray, realizing that I am equally worthy of condemnation for the many sins I committed before my conversion to the true faith.

Lord have mercy!]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This does not strike me as a particularly pious life. Rather, it strikes me as someone whose apparently pious actions are created more from a fear of hell and the Judgment rather than a true repentance. How many times have I heard from priests that true repentance produces a true change of life?  Many! </p>
<p>I, a sinner, cannot and should not judge his life. Only the merciful God may do so, yet I am perplexed at how one might receive the life-giving Sacrament of the Eucharist and not be changed. How does this happen?</p>
<p>The best thing I can do for Ivan Grozny is to add his name to the list of deceased for whom I pray, realizing that I am equally worthy of condemnation for the many sins I committed before my conversion to the true faith.</p>
<p>Lord have mercy!</p>
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		<title>
		By: Reader John Malov		</title>
		<link>https://catalog.obitel-minsk.com/blog/2022/08/ivan-the-terrible-how-could-faith-and-violence-coexist-in-one-person#comment-6125</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Reader John Malov]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 03 Aug 2022 07:10:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://catalog.obitel-minsk.com/blog/?p=38987#comment-6125</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[In reply to &lt;a href=&quot;https://catalog.obitel-minsk.com/blog/2022/08/ivan-the-terrible-how-could-faith-and-violence-coexist-in-one-person#comment-6120&quot;&gt;Ben&lt;/a&gt;.

Thank you too. The whole story is very sad. The more details, the worse it gets. As was said in the article, this list with the names of the victims has not survived in its entirety. It is not known how many names were there originally.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In reply to <a href="https://catalog.obitel-minsk.com/blog/2022/08/ivan-the-terrible-how-could-faith-and-violence-coexist-in-one-person#comment-6120">Ben</a>.</p>
<p>Thank you too. The whole story is very sad. The more details, the worse it gets. As was said in the article, this list with the names of the victims has not survived in its entirety. It is not known how many names were there originally.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Reader John Malov		</title>
		<link>https://catalog.obitel-minsk.com/blog/2022/08/ivan-the-terrible-how-could-faith-and-violence-coexist-in-one-person#comment-6124</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Reader John Malov]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 03 Aug 2022 07:05:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://catalog.obitel-minsk.com/blog/?p=38987#comment-6124</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[In reply to &lt;a href=&quot;https://catalog.obitel-minsk.com/blog/2022/08/ivan-the-terrible-how-could-faith-and-violence-coexist-in-one-person#comment-6122&quot;&gt;Matt&lt;/a&gt;.

The story of the oprichniks and the establishment of the oprichnik &quot;monastery&quot; was originally present in the article. I write articles in Russian, and then they are sent to translators. For this reason I need to stick to a certain length of text. The original article was too big to translate, so it had to be shortened.

Yes, the oprichniks deserve a separate article. But I am not sure it will be possible anytime soon.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In reply to <a href="https://catalog.obitel-minsk.com/blog/2022/08/ivan-the-terrible-how-could-faith-and-violence-coexist-in-one-person#comment-6122">Matt</a>.</p>
<p>The story of the oprichniks and the establishment of the oprichnik &#8220;monastery&#8221; was originally present in the article. I write articles in Russian, and then they are sent to translators. For this reason I need to stick to a certain length of text. The original article was too big to translate, so it had to be shortened.</p>
<p>Yes, the oprichniks deserve a separate article. But I am not sure it will be possible anytime soon.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Reader John Malov		</title>
		<link>https://catalog.obitel-minsk.com/blog/2022/08/ivan-the-terrible-how-could-faith-and-violence-coexist-in-one-person#comment-6123</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Reader John Malov]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 03 Aug 2022 06:59:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://catalog.obitel-minsk.com/blog/?p=38987#comment-6123</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[In reply to &lt;a href=&quot;https://catalog.obitel-minsk.com/blog/2022/08/ivan-the-terrible-how-could-faith-and-violence-coexist-in-one-person#comment-6121&quot;&gt;Marc Blaydoe&lt;/a&gt;.

An autopsy of Ivan the Terrible&#039;s body revealed elevated levels of mercury. Mercury was part of many medicines. This includes drugs for syphilis, which Ivan the Terrible supposedly had. The theory of poisoning is not confirmed, but also not denied.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In reply to <a href="https://catalog.obitel-minsk.com/blog/2022/08/ivan-the-terrible-how-could-faith-and-violence-coexist-in-one-person#comment-6121">Marc Blaydoe</a>.</p>
<p>An autopsy of Ivan the Terrible&#8217;s body revealed elevated levels of mercury. Mercury was part of many medicines. This includes drugs for syphilis, which Ivan the Terrible supposedly had. The theory of poisoning is not confirmed, but also not denied.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Matt		</title>
		<link>https://catalog.obitel-minsk.com/blog/2022/08/ivan-the-terrible-how-could-faith-and-violence-coexist-in-one-person#comment-6122</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Matt]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 03 Aug 2022 04:38:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://catalog.obitel-minsk.com/blog/?p=38987#comment-6122</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[I am surprised that for an otherwise very erudite and considered account of Ivan IV, there is no mention of his Oprichniki, basically Russia&#039;s very first organised, government sponsored &quot;Secret Police&quot;. Many times their raids were led by Ivan himself. Their very symbolic monastic clothing - black robes and hoods, riding black horses adorned with a wolf&#039;s or dog&#039;s head (to sniff out treason/irreligious) and a broom (to symbolise sweeping it away). Like their leader Ivan, they lived an outwardly ascetic lifestyle, similar to the monks they emulated, but punctuated by acts of cruelty and debauchery.
Perhaps they deserve their own, dedicated article as a follow-up to this one?]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I am surprised that for an otherwise very erudite and considered account of Ivan IV, there is no mention of his Oprichniki, basically Russia&#8217;s very first organised, government sponsored &#8220;Secret Police&#8221;. Many times their raids were led by Ivan himself. Their very symbolic monastic clothing &#8211; black robes and hoods, riding black horses adorned with a wolf&#8217;s or dog&#8217;s head (to sniff out treason/irreligious) and a broom (to symbolise sweeping it away). Like their leader Ivan, they lived an outwardly ascetic lifestyle, similar to the monks they emulated, but punctuated by acts of cruelty and debauchery.<br />
Perhaps they deserve their own, dedicated article as a follow-up to this one?</p>
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